Avoiding corrupt minds

[crystalclear]

Originally Posted by immac

So you did everything wrong: made assumptions that did not stand up, did not do the right checks and bought something that did not exist. Yes, they may have been bent, but you handed them everything on a plate. Would you have done the same in UK?

Ian

The point to my post above was to try to actually get a plan of things to do and check in place for all to see and use. The buying process is no so easy in practise in Turkey as so many have already found out.

So rather than talking about not doing the "right checks" and buying something that did not exist.
How about a listed format of what to do where to go and what to expect in order to help anyone wishing to buy in the furture avoid some of the pitfalls.

Crystalclear

[immac]

That exists already on the forum.
Ian

[Guz1]

Originally Posted by immac

But what you are saying is, you can't check things so carry on regardless; my point would be, you can't check things so don't buy.
Ian

That's not what I'm saying. It makes no difference to me whether people buy or not. This has been my one and only experience of buying foreign property and I'm aware that I didn't come out of it too badly all things considered. Six years ago, if I had been aware of the pitfalls I wouldn't have bought. Having had fond memories of holidays in Turkey, I heard through a third party of someone who had bought property there. I got contact details for the agent they had used and the rest is history. The agency I used has been recommended on this and other forums; it is an "approved" agent on at least one forum and the only approved agency on another very popular forum. In all conscience, I couldn't recommend that agent. At the same time, my sense of fairness prohibits me from rubbishing them because I believe that they were better than some and no worse than most at that time, all of whom operated in a system with little or no regulation. I didn't engage a solicitor. The advice I received was that it wasn't usual in Turkey for solicitors to do conveyancing because the emlaks carried out all the background checks. Stupid? Yes, but I understand that the advice was accurate at that time.

Thanks to what I have learned from TLF, I think that it would be possible for me to buy a completed resale (not a shell) in Turkey and actually get what I pay for, but I would check, double-check and triple-check if possible before parting with any money. Before paying a deposit, I would see the original tapu and get a photocopy of it and the habitation cert; I would check that the house had been built according to its planning permission and would check the details of the habitation cert; any deposit paid would be minimal; my contract of sale would probably run into pages containing every minute detail and perhaps be the result of a few drafts before I would sign it; I would seriously consider having the contract checked by a second solicitor before signing; my solicitor would be from a large firm in a different area; I would get an itemised list of costs from the solicitor before agreeing to have him act for me; all correspondence would be in Turkish and I would get independent translations; under no circumstances would I give power of attorney to anyone; immediately prior to transfer of ownership I would check again tht there were no debts against the property and at the transfer of ownership I would have the official translator go through every item on the tapu before paying over the money.

I think that's the gist of what I was saying.

[tintagel]

Originally Posted by immac

But what you are saying is, you can't check things so carry on regardless; my point would be, you can't check things so don't buy.
Ian

I agree Carol, but surely that is a reason to carry out more checks, not less. The experiences of people on this forum show that the tendency is not to do these checks in a country where they don't speak the language or understand the law.
Ian

Ian, you've inadvertently just sparked my touch paper, nothing personal :-).

Hindsight, would never have been a more valuable a gift to (as we were) prospective purchasers in Turkey. It is absolutely impossible to forsee the myriad of 'back alleys' they take people down to con them out of more & more money. It is impossible to trust anyone! with virtually no recourse when you are duped, conned, defrauded, even when you can prove it, Lord! what a miserable way to live :-(.

I certainly would not have bought, if I had known a fraction of what I have had to learn the hard way. They, (as Bob refers to them ) are in a class of their own, the like of which I have never encountered before & never wish to again. (I lived in different countries for many years & don't consider myself a greenhorn) Why should anyone 'have a Dog & bark yourself' as the saying goes. How on earth could businesses around the world function along these lines?? quite simply, I don't believe they could. Businesses would 'Eventually' come crashing down around their ears! It would be total chaos. (should be ringing some bells out there?)

They, are totally consumed with greed & the love of gold without the slightest care for the lives they ruin or, the harm they cause. A majority of foreign investors in Turkey are, ordinary hard working, honest people, not equipped (nor should they have to be!) to deal with the totally unscrupulous & dishonest element that just wait for more victims to arrive....

They, are Truly Professional's (literally), which is not a compliment........ ;-(. Thank goodness that forums like TLF exist! & so much information can now be easily shared and debated. This helps tremendously, but sadly, until the Powers that be in Turkey actually DO SOMETHING!! to protect people from these thieves. Many more victims will still fall into the paradise trap & only wake up to the nightmare too late & realise that they too, have been robbed & conned :-(.

I would never have even imagined possible, the anger, distrust & disgust that I now feel for a place that once, touched my heart. It's too late for Turkey to repair my broken life, but just how many more ruined lives will it take before Turkey realises that 'You can fool some of the people, some of the time. You can't fool all the people all the time'. BB is, now watching.......

[bobthenob]

lf only they look at corruption as a disease in the economy.They will have a different way of thinking in plugging this disease before the economy collapses.
The Roman Empire was the biggest administration the world has ever seen.But there was one enemy that couldn't be defeated because it was so embedded in the system.Corruption destroyed the Empire.
History is there for a reason to learn from the mistakes of the pass.lt doesn't look like the men of greed will ever listen.
The wagging tongue can either go in the countries favour or against.lt all depends on how the country whats to promotes itself

[Guz1]

Originally Posted by shirleyanntr

İ wonder what the % is of sales that go through without a hitch and those that dont ..given the size of the property market ...
and also the % of Brits that have a had terrible time as opposed to other foreigners.

Shirley: No doubt the majority of sales go through without a hitch. Sometimes the problems don't present themselves until afterwards. For example, during all the discussions about Tapu updating, it was suggested that something like 80% of Tapus are Kat Irtifaki. It stretches credibility to its limits to think that many hundreds, possibly thousands, of foreign buyers knowingly paid over the full purchase price for a title deed that only showed a plot of land or a share of a plot of land with planning permission. No house or apartment - just planning permission. All those foreigners weren't stupid and they didn't all use unscrupulous or disreputable agents and solicitors.

For years this was the only forum that allowed people relate negative experiences and warn other about the pitfalls. Even here, there were plenty who poured scorn on anything negative. No shortage of "my best friend the emlak" posts and even now we get comments like "it doesn't bother the Turks so it will all be ok in the end".

We even had people saying that restaurant hassle boys are part of Turkish culture and we should enjoy it. The penny drops slowly in Turkey. It took a slump in tourism for the authorities to do anything about the hassle boys. Other forums are finally taking a leaf out of Mushtaq's book and giving some modicum of freedom of speech. As Tintagel says, they can't fool all the people all the time so maybe the penny has finally dropped with them. How many of them will now take responsibility for giving the impression that everything in the garden was rosy while their countrymen were being taken to the cleaners? Not many I reckon.

[shirleyanntr]

Maria i wasnt arguing for or against anything, my question is valid as i really wonder about the percentage of foreign buyers that have had problems and what percentage that havent and what makes the difference.
and i also wonder if the people that have the most problems are british or do other foreigners have similar problems.
İ've also said somewhere on another thread that Estate Agents here have as bad a reputation as they do in the Uk, and are not trusted by Turkish people, who are very cautious when parting with their money.

[JEANNIE]

I wish i had read this 3 years ago is all i can say!!!!!!!!



Jeannie

[Guz1]

Yes, Shirley, it is a valid question. I don't suppose anyone has done an unbiased survey but if they had the results would be interesting. I'm aware from other threads (possibly something that you posted) that a huge percentage of foreign buyers come from Middle Eastern countries and Russia. I reckon that, especially in the case of Middle Eastern buyers, their approach to buying and selling might be more in tune with the Turkish approach whereas those of us from Northern/Western Europe have been lulled into a false sense of security by our own consumer protection laws and by stricter regulations. I would like to see a survey of Northern/Western European buyers.

[immac]

Gullible people will always manage to meet dishonest people. It is the way of the world and always has been.
You can run as many surveys as you like, but until people manage to walk away from risk, someone will always be ready to burn their fingers. Afterwards we hear "if only I had known..." I suspect it would have made little difference to someone determined to buy a dream in an empty field.

Ian