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Old 16th February 2014, 15:03   #581 (permalink)
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Re: Scotland will have to quit the sterling if it votes for independence next year

All is not sweetness and light in the Yes camp.

The First Minister’s comments regarding debt liabilities have been branded reckless by pro-Union politicians and campaigners, who have also called for him to bring forward his Plan B on currency arrangements.


But one senior SNP figure said: “It shouldn’t exactly have been a surprise that Osborne would make this announcement. It was more a matter of when rather than if.


“We should have made sure that we had a stronger alternative to offer. Just saying ‘they’re bluffing’ isn’t persuasive to the voters we need to win round.


“It’s great for the converted but it’s not going to bring don’t knows on board.


“Alex’s line won’t hold for seven months. We should have sorted an alternative proposal months ago. Even if his line that Westminster is bullying Scotland gets any traction, that’s not going to make people gamble with their mortgage rates or their pensions.”

Even members of Salmond’s own Fiscal Commission which endorsed the currency union have been suggesting alternatives with Sir James Mirlees, suggesting “a Scottish pound” should be looked at as an alternative, while Professor Andrew Hughes Hallett said there is nothing to stop Scotland using the pound informally.

Maybe something along the lines of...........



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Old 16th February 2014, 16:12   #582 (permalink)
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Re: Scotland will have to quit the sterling if it votes for independence next year

I see even the good old BBC have published quotes from this paper by
Sir David Edward, KCMG, QC, PC, FRSE - ( the first British Judge of the European Court of First Instance from 1989 to 1992, and of the European Court of Justice from 1992 to 2004, Professor Emeritus of the University of Edinburgh, Salvesen Professor of European Institutions and Director of the Europa Institute from 1985 to 1989) - in rebuttal of Barroso's inane gibberish. Good on them, for at least being rational about his ridiculous outburst.



I express no opinion as to whether either Scotland or RoUK or both would be “successor States” in conventional international law. That question might be relevant in relation to other treaty relationships but not within the legal order of the EU (nor incidentally, in my opinion, those of the Council of Europe and the European Convention on Human Rights).

On those assumptions, my opinion is that, in accordance with their obligations of good faith, sincere cooperation and solidarity, the EU institutions and all the Member States (including the UK as existing), would be obliged to enter into negotiations, before separation took effect, to determine the future relationship within the EU of the separate parts of the former UK and the other Member States.

The outcome of such negotiations, unless they failed utterly, would be agreed amendment of the existing Treaties, not a new Accession Treaty. The simplified revision procedure provided by Article 48 TEU would not apply, so ratification of the amended Treaties would be necessary.

It would, of course, be necessary to decide how and by whom negotiations would be conducted. Formally speaking, until the moment of separation, the UK as existing would be the Member State on which the obligation to negotiate would fall, and with which the EU institutions and the other Member States would expect to negotiate. How this would be handled as between the constituent parts of the UK would itself be a matter for negotiation – equally in a spirit of good faith, sincere cooperation and respect for the concerns of other Member States.

In short, in so far as we are entitled to look for legal certainty, all that is certain is that EU law would require all parties to negotiate in good faith and in a spirit of cooperation before separation took place. The results of such negotiation are hardly, if at all, a matter of law.





Now, let's see who I tend to believe -

A learned European Judge at the highest level, with no particular axe to grind

or a clearly partial, political place-man?


Tough choice.






David Edward: Scotland and the European Union > Scottish Constitutional Futures Forum
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Old 16th February 2014, 16:29   #583 (permalink)
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Re: Scotland will have to quit the sterling if it votes for independence next year

Quote:
Originally Posted by giglets View Post
I see even the good old BBC have published quotes from this paper by
Sir David Edward, KCMG, QC, PC, FRSE - ( the first British Judge of the European Court of First Instance from 1989 to 1992, and of the European Court of Justice from 1992 to 2004, Professor Emeritus of the University of Edinburgh, Salvesen Professor of European Institutions and Director of the Europa Institute from 1985 to 1989) - in rebuttal of Barroso's inane gibberish. Good on them, for at least being rational about his ridiculous outburst.



I express no opinion as to whether either Scotland or RoUK or both would be “successor States” in conventional international law. That question might be relevant in relation to other treaty relationships but not within the legal order of the EU (nor incidentally, in my opinion, those of the Council of Europe and the European Convention on Human Rights).

On those assumptions, my opinion is that, in accordance with their obligations of good faith, sincere cooperation and solidarity, the EU institutions and all the Member States (including the UK as existing), would be obliged to enter into negotiations, before separation took effect, to determine the future relationship within the EU of the separate parts of the former UK and the other Member States.

The outcome of such negotiations, unless they failed utterly, would be agreed amendment of the existing Treaties, not a new Accession Treaty. The simplified revision procedure provided by Article 48 TEU would not apply, so ratification of the amended Treaties would be necessary.

It would, of course, be necessary to decide how and by whom negotiations would be conducted. Formally speaking, until the moment of separation, the UK as existing would be the Member State on which the obligation to negotiate would fall, and with which the EU institutions and the other Member States would expect to negotiate. How this would be handled as between the constituent parts of the UK would itself be a matter for negotiation – equally in a spirit of good faith, sincere cooperation and respect for the concerns of other Member States.

In short, in so far as we are entitled to look for legal certainty, all that is certain is that EU law would require all parties to negotiate in good faith and in a spirit of cooperation before separation took place. The results of such negotiation are hardly, if at all, a matter of law.







Now, let's see who I tend to believe -

A learned European Judge at the highest level, with no particular axe to grind

or a clearly partial, political place-man?


Tough choice.






David Edward: Scotland and the European Union > Scottish Constitutional Futures Forum

So the UK & Scotland have about 200 days to negotiate not only with each other but also all the other member states? Is there enough time for that?
I know some are saying Scotland would have no problem but did the EU not state sometime back that "new members" would be expected to have the Euro?
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Old 16th February 2014, 16:48   #584 (permalink)
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Re: Scotland will have to quit the sterling if it votes for independence next year

David said " Now, let's see who I tend to believe -

A learned European Judge at the highest level, with no particular axe to grind

or a clearly partial, political place-man?


Tough choice.


Get twelve of the above together on any subject matter on earth and you will get twelve " learned opinions " , not one concurring without months of horse trading , both politicians and judges... Lol

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Old 16th February 2014, 16:51   #585 (permalink)
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Re: Scotland will have to quit the sterling if it votes for independence next year

My understanding is that, if there is only a need for an Amendment to the existing Treaties, Scotland would not need to Accede as a "new" State.

That would speed up the entire process considerably.

The time-frame suggested, has been suggested as entirely reasonable by the EU experts consulted by the Scottish Government.

As for the Euro, Sweden joined the EU in 1995, has not adopted the Euro and says it has no plans to do so "in the near future".

It still remains a Member of the EU.
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Old 16th February 2014, 16:56   #586 (permalink)
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Re: Scotland will have to quit the sterling if it votes for independence next year

It was said at lunchtime on the Sunday Politics that for countries joining now accession to the Euro was amndatory after two years of shadowing , with their " own " currency.

Mr Swinney did not have a reply outside their undeclared " options "

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Old 16th February 2014, 16:59   #587 (permalink)
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Re: Scotland will have to quit the sterling if it votes for independence next year

Quote:
Originally Posted by tykatem View Post

Maybe something along the lines of...........



Pete
Love it.

Responding to President Barroso's comments, Better Together Leader, Alistair Darling said:

"Alex Salmond is a man without a plan on currency and Europe. The wheels are falling off the independence wagon.

"On the two biggest issues for jobs and businesses in Scotland, currency and Europe, the nationalists are all over the place. We are being asked to take a huge leap into the unknown.

"When Alex Salmond is told Scotland won't keep the Pound, he says everybody is bluffing and only he is right. When the President of the European Commission says there would be huge difficulties with EU membership, nationalists say he is talking nonsense. It isn't credible.

"People in Scotland are entitled to know what would replace the Pound and the difficulties we would face on Europe. Instead of more bluff and bluster it's time for Alex Salmond to face up to reality."

Support the campaign for a strong Scotland in the UK today
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Old 16th February 2014, 17:15   #588 (permalink)
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Re: Scotland will have to quit the sterling if it votes for independence next year

Quote:
Originally Posted by giglets View Post
My understanding is that, if there is only a need for an Amendment to the existing Treaties, Scotland would not need to Accede as a "new" State.

That would speed up the entire process considerably.

The time-frame suggested, has been suggested as entirely reasonable by the EU experts consulted by the Scottish Government.

As for the Euro, Sweden joined the EU in 1995, has not adopted the Euro and says it has no plans to do so "in the near future".

It still remains a Member of the EU.
Surely though Dave, like the UK those Countries at that time could negotiate that exemption, I believe that is not the case anymore.

Quote:
The euro area includes those EU Member States that have adopted the single currency. But the euro area is not static – under the Treaty, all EU Member States have to join the euro area once the necessary conditions are fulfilled, except Denmark and the United Kingdom which have negotiated an 'opt-out' clause that allows them to remain outside the euro area.

Sweden is also expected to join the euro area in the future, but has not yet qualified. End quote.

Of course & I tend to agree that Scotland has been part of the EU as part of the UK & should not be applying for membership but should be given it. But reading the above I think the expectation from the EU would be their participation in the Euro at sometime in the near future.
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Old 16th February 2014, 17:40   #589 (permalink)
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Re: Scotland will have to quit the sterling if it votes for independence next year

In relation to joining the Euro, it appears to be a bit of a conundrum.

Before joining the Euro, it's obligatory to be in the Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) for two years, BUT it's voluntary as to whether to join the ERM in the first place.

Hence Seden's Membership for almost 20 years, with no acceptance of the Euro.

I can find no evidence of this set up having changed, so Scotland could not be forced to take the Euro.
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Old 16th February 2014, 17:42   #590 (permalink)
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Re: Scotland will have to quit the sterling if it votes for independence next year

BBC News - Scottish independence: Sir David Edward says Jose Manuel Barroso 'wrong' on EU
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