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Old 10th August 2017, 16:27   #281 (permalink)
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Re: Post-apartheid South Africa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akasya View Post
You cannot back up your statement , what else have you made up ?

No courage to back your conviction.

Steve
For the hard of Hearing & for the last time: I've already replied, Specsavers awaits your pleasure...............

You're wasting your time trying to goad me with your aspersions & insults!

No Coconut or cuddly toy for you today!
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Old 10th August 2017, 16:39   #282 (permalink)
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Re: Post-apartheid South Africa.

Tin just keep your insults , i did not say disenfranchise the elderly , I did not advocate said either.

You have attributed your aspersions to me and do not have the decency to own up.

Specsavers , Gorsuch , Bill Clinton , very thin straws , even for you.

Steve
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Old 10th August 2017, 16:55   #283 (permalink)
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Re: Post-apartheid South Africa.

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Originally Posted by akasya View Post
tin just keep your insults , i did not say disenfranchise the elderly , i did not advocate said either.

You have attributed your aspersions to me and do not have the decency to own up.

Specsavers , gorsuch , bill clinton , very thin straws , even for you.

Steve
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Old 10th August 2017, 16:56   #284 (permalink)
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Re: Post-apartheid South Africa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WIDDRINGTON View Post
Bal - a few points in reply

1. "Whilst President* Zuma is in power he just enriches himself and lackeys"

That seems to be the reality and of course is unforgiveable. But is that not what happens all over the place ? It happened throughout the apartheid years and are Turkey and Ukraine not struggling with the same graft and corruption issues?


2. "but Jacey is right in his worry for the destruction of his beautiful country".* ----. "seeing a** beautiful country like S.A.* with its* promising future,* going down the road* under Zuma* towards* the failed* and* wrecked country of** Zimbabwe"

"We have a perfect example of a liberation gone wrong when instead of raising the level for all------"

Whilst I am no fan of Zuma, surely the storm was looming long before Zuma came to power. In fact the ANC inherited a real mess in 1994. In the 1980's the South African economy sank precariously with the rand collapsing and foreign investment levels diving . Towards the end of the 80's , it was reported that the levels of corruption within the apartheid establishment soared to new heights . As one commentator put it - it was akin to the looting of a sinking ship with capital flowing abroad into foreign accounts. When the end of apartheid was announced in 1990 South Africa was considered by many to be ungovernable and when the ANC came to power in 1994 the South African state has been reported as owing $80 BILLION with the interest payments alone amounting to more than $15 BILLION . On top of that the budget deficit was already running at 9.5% of GDP. So everything was not rosy in 1994 .

And to be frank, the ANC most probably came to power*very ill equipped for the job in front of them. It should be remembered that right up to the early 1990's the ANC had been training its activists for a military seizure of power in a revolution that would bring in a largely communist / very left wing government .They had not anticipated* somebody like F.W. De Klerk coming along with his compromises in the very late 80's and only then did the ANC change their position accordingly ( most reluctantly by some)
To add to their problems the country was then hit hard by heavy emigration in the 1990's resulting in a huge loss of capital,* entrepreneurship and skills and of course we then had the global economic meltdown of 2008.

3. "So Jaycey is right to worry if there will be an S.A. to mature as Steve and most of us want to see"

Well let us hope that there is . But to restate the obvious - the democracy is young and the legacy of the apartheid years will be there for a very long time. As stated in a previous post,* much of the new electorate is politically ill informed and uneducated. So it was no surprise that they have backed the ANC to the hilt - being promised so much and coming from a position of having so little. There has to be a learning process and I sincerely hope* it is already happening with slow realisation that a corrupt white Afrikaner elite has merely been replaced by a corrupt* ANC elite AND one form of racial nationalism (white Afrikaner) has merely been replaced by another (African) AND inequality remains huge.


4. "It's surely* not a step forward* for S.A.and the prosperity of the country* bringing the fraction of the populace you talk of,*by* bringing them down to the level of the general* black* impoverished* population".

"What some people forget being S.A. African isn't a color but a love of the country of birth.IMHO"

Well I suppose it all depends on what side of the fence one is coming from. I struggle with the concept of a one nation South Africa and I don't think it has been governed as such.
To repeat I am no supporter of Zuma or the ANC performance since 1994.* South Africa remains one of the most unequal societies in the world - always has been. Yes I have read about the numbers of white squatter townships and the difficulties being experienced by white working class*Afrikaners*but these numbers are estimated to amount to less one per cent of the white South African population ( 42000 est). Compare that to*the 27 million blacks assessed to be living in poverty ( est 63% of black South African population). It is still a white man's country in terms of economic choices, privilege and opportunity that is for sure. The priority for the ANC must surely be to improve living standards and income equality for the disadvantaged per se - the great majority of whom just happen to be black South Africans. Two quotes of Tony Blair ring a bell in my head which the ANC would do well to heed - ie

"We are on the side of ordinary people against privilege, against vested interests of the public or private sector..."*

"Ask me my three main priorities for government, and I tell you: education, education, education.".
I must put a disclaimer as Jaycey said I normally stick to areas of the world I have some background in, with S.A. it just what I have read..... that's why I appreciate Jaycey own life experience born and living there. and something Saroise is always saying is essential in his Irish saga ..... but whilst it can be good IMHO it can be too close to see the bigger picture and colored by quite rightly a bias to your own community or beliefs.

Anyway, Widdie we aren't far from an agreement in some ... and in some, I take it that you're just giving a picture of the times as I didn't make comment on it ..................I must say I 'm at a loss over the Zuma comment,..... you say Unforgivable......... but seem to imply because of it being a reality in other countries it should some how overlooked, or have I misunderstood you.

I don't think I suggested the economy was rosy when the ANC took power, in fact, I believe S.A. had a debt crisis 1984/5 under the regime of the time ........ and S.A. economy took a further jolt from sanctions when their main trading partners the US/EU/JAPAN decided to join in sanctions being applied by others, hoping it to be the coup de grace on the apartheid regime.

So of course, a country coming out of sanctions after that length of time and on the lifting of them in 1991/93 wasn't going to be in good shape for the ANC to take over.

And don't really understand what you were getting at, unless as I said setting the picture of the times, as I said I supported the old ANC and their struggle to power and their struggle whilst in power in what they inherited, and in meeting the needs and expectations of an impoverished black population.

But although inexperienced as you say, the ANC was hardly coming from Year Zero. There was a functioning civil service and the pillars of democracy were in place, they had now representation in the form of a government, a Legislature, (Parliament & State Assemblies, and a functioning Judiciary, and there were experienced parliamentarians available I believe, who had been involved in the internal struggle against apartheid regime with its base from the Unions and the Communist PARTY like the Mass Democratic Movement, and the UDF.

They also have had 23 years in power

I do believe the ANC started to turn the country around and should be congratulated for bringing clean water and electric to many, and some much-needed housing but not enough, they introduced the social grant system which 33% 17 mil of the most impoverished in S.A.depend on . That's when the ANC Vision was on track and they were "of" the people and "for" the people ( but this vision of social grant under Zuma's mismanagement is now being abused and mired in fraud ) but it gets him the votes (where have I seen this system used Erdogan )

So I have no truk with the ANC of the past and "the struggle" to rid Apartheid I praise that, but have a problem with new, under 10 years of Zuma.... a man who is a proud polygamist a , misogynist and adulterer and alleged rapist (dropped when he took the presidency) .

He is allegedly involved in money laundering, bribe taking and racketeering enriching people who seek his patronage on the lines of Mugabe.

Someone who has enriched himself and taken from conglomerates and allowed patronage of the conglomerate of the Guptas who employ his family as directors his wife, one of his sons and his daughter and of which he grants undue influence, some even calling it the shadow Govt of S.A. etc etc ............

All so far from the spirit of the ANC of Oliver Tambo or Nelson Mandela and which I repeat of Tambo quote.... had an intrinsic sense of political honor and was utterly opposed to attempts by people to use the name of "the struggle" and the name of the ANC for material accumulation, personal or family enrichment, sexual favours or individual ambition he believed in a rights based, not a power based vision .

A strike out for ZUMA on most

This is what I have problem with, the future that could have been.......
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Last edited by bal canavar; 10th August 2017 at 19:21..
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Old 10th August 2017, 20:05   #285 (permalink)
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Re: Post-apartheid South Africa.

tintagel ., you have deliberately misrepresented my post , have insulted me with your gibes and putdowns , even nasty little perspiration digs , all because you cannot justify your assertions .

As of yet i have not insulted you , and if i get a ban for this i will enjoy being away from you.

I hope your knicker elastic is strong , because the way you try and wriggle out of your lies , your drawers would be around you ankles all day long if it is not.

Enjoy your triumph , they make good pants.

Steve

Last edited by Akasya; 10th August 2017 at 20:17..
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Old 10th August 2017, 22:46   #286 (permalink)
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Re: Post-apartheid South Africa.

[QUOTE=bal canavar;1126134

Bal - No problem - just different points of view and, like you, based on what I have read and heard. My replies are in BOLD simply for differentiation - I haven't worked out how to use the colour functions !

*1.".. but whilst it can be good IMHO it can be too close to see the bigger picture and colored by quite rightly a bias to your own community or beliefs "

TOTALLY AGREE

2. "I must say I 'm at a loss over the Zuma comment,..... you say Unforgivable......... but seem to imply because of it being a reality in other countries it should some how overlooked, or have I misunderstood you"

YES YOU HAVE TAKEN MY COMMENT THE WRONG WAY BAL. I AM NOT SAYING IT SHOULD BE OVERLOOKED - AS STATED I THINK IT IS UNFORGIVEABLE BUT I JUST ACCEPT THAT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS IN POLITICS AND BIG BUSINESS.* SEEMS TO BE THE NORM AND IS NO DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WENT ON BEFORE THE ANC CAME TO POWER. CONTEMPTABLE THOUGH.

3.* "I don't think I suggested the economy was rosy when the ANC took power"

NO YOU DIDN'T BAL.* BUT MY RESPONSE WAS RE YOUR STATEMENT " "seeing a beautiful country like S.A with it's promising future"

MY POINT IS THAT THE FUTURE WAS NOT PROMISING AT THE TIME THE A.N.C TOOK OVER*

4. " ----So of course, a country coming out of sanctions after that length of time and on the lifting of them in 1991/93 wasn't going to be in good shape for the ANC to take over." *

SANCTIONS OF COURSE CONTRIBUTED TO THE ECONOMIC PROBLEMS BUT THE POINT I WANTED TO STRESS WAS THAT THE DEBT WAS NOT JUST BECAUSE OF EXTERNAL FACTORS SUCH AS THE SANCTIONS AND BUSINESS CYCLE CONDITIONS. * INTERNAL FACTORS WERE EQUALLY IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT IN LEADING TO THE COLLAPSE OF APARTHEID .* THE COSTS AND INEFFICIENCIES INVOLVED IN PROPPING UP* a) APARTHEID POLICIES and* 2)* APARTHEID INFRASTRUCTURE and ADMINISTRATIVE INSTITUTIONS ULTIMATELY BROUGHT APARTHEID TO AN END- QUITE SIMPLY IT BECAME TOO COSTLY AND TOO WASTEFUL TO CONTINUE WITH.

5.* "But although inexperienced as you say, the ANC was hardly coming from Year Zero". ----- "in meeting the needs and expectations of an impoverished black population."

I TAKE A DIFFERENT VIEW ON THIS BAL-* I DO THINK THAT THEY WERE COMING FROM A VERY POOR STARTING POSITION - PARTICULARLY IN TERMS OF EXPERIENCE AND SKILLS REQUIRED FOR RUNNING A GOVT. THIS WAS AN ORGANISATION WHO HAD SO LONG FOCUSSED ON REVOLUTIONARY SEIZURE OF POWER AND INTRODUCING A QUASI COMMUNIST REGIME. I THINK THAT THE HIGH EXPECTATIONS OF THE A.N.C WERE CONSEQUENTLY VERY UNREALISTIC GIVEN WHAT THE POLICIES WIITHIN SUCH AN AGENDA WERE LIKELY TO BE.*

6.* "They also have had 23 years in power"

THIS IS WHERE I AM IN ABSOLUTE AGREEMENT. THE YEARS SINCE 1994 HAVE BEEN BESET WITH* VERY INADEQUATE LEADERSHIP - AND JACOB ZUMA IS ONLY THE LATEST IN A LINE. THE DAYS OF THE ANC IN POWER COULD VERY WELL BE NUMBERED AS MORE AND MORE OF THE POOR BLACK POPULATION AIR THEIR DISILLUSIONMENT. I FEAR FOR SOUTH AFRICA.

7. "This is what I have problem with, the future that could have been......."[

I WONDER FROM A DIFFERENT STARTING POINT. I WONDER ABOUT THE FUTURE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN IF POLICIES SINCE 1948 HAD PROMOTED INCLUSION AND EQUALITY RATHER THAN APARTHEID AND EXCLUSION. THINGS COULD HAVE BEEN SO DIFFERENT NOW.
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Old 11th August 2017, 07:17   #287 (permalink)
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Re: Post-apartheid South Africa.

Magic to see an impassioned discussion , argued on both sides with a respectful desire to put across salient points.

Hats off to both Bal and Widders , differing positions marked out respectfully.

You both inspire me to attempt to adopt your standards.

Thanks

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Old 14th August 2017, 12:41   #288 (permalink)
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Re: Post-apartheid South Africa.

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I hope your knicker elastic is strong , because the way you try and wriggle out of your lies , your drawers would be around you ankles all day long if it is not.

Enjoy your triumph , they make good pants.

Steve
M'mm, well as "Insults" go, that's a pretty sleazy one, but hey ho if that's what floats yer boat..... here ya go!

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Old 14th August 2017, 12:50   #289 (permalink)
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Re: Post-apartheid South Africa.

Worth booking a holiday there ?
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Old 14th August 2017, 13:03   #290 (permalink)
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Re: Post-apartheid South Africa.

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Worth booking a holiday there ?

You’d better hurry Des, the lights will be going out any time now
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