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Old 11th July 2018, 22:31   #371 (permalink)
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Re: Nato

Trump maybe against NATO, but the Americans aren't, as seen by the results of a bi-partisan Senate vote which was overwhelmingly for NATO, approving a motion in support of the Organisation. This pro-Nato vote took place in the Senate only on Tuesday and was 97 - 2 for NATO....

Obviously, a reflection of the electorate, as no career senator is/was likely to jeopardize their seats just when they are up for re-elections... so unlikely to vote against an unpopular vote.

Quite telling, the worry being felt across the board, of Trump's ambivalence towards NATO, seeing most members of Trumps own Party voting for NATO against him .......... Trump is on his own on this tactic with the Europeans.
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Old 11th July 2018, 23:01   #372 (permalink)
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Re: Nato

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Originally Posted by Camden View Post
Trump maybe against NATO, but the Americans aren't, as seen by the results of a bi-partisan Senate vote which was overwhelmingly for NATO, approving a motion in support of the Organisation. This pro-Nato vote took place in the Senate only on Tuesday and was 97 - 2 for NATO....

Obviously, a reflection of the electorate, as no career senator is/was likely to jeopardize their seats just when they are up for re-elections... so unlikely to vote against an unpopular vote.

Quite telling, the worry being felt across the board, of Trump's ambivalence towards NATO, seeing most members of Trumps own Party voting for NATO against him .......... Trump is on his own on this tactic with the Europeans.
I pretty much agree but his outspoken stance has brought monies into NATO. If countries are not paying their way then surely its not a case of just keeping quiet about it.
It was expected for him to go at it like a bull in a china shop, now its a case of seeing what comes of it. I have never thought that Trump has intentions of dismantling NATO, nor do I think he even has those capabilities. As said though, why should broken Greece pay 2% if more wealthier countries don't?
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Old 12th July 2018, 00:17   #373 (permalink)
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Re: Nato

Trump has said that European countries owe America monies, but that is untrue there is no such debt to the U.S no binding commitment made. Nor due to NATO as it doesn't have a contribution military budget.

What was agreed by NATO members in 2014, they agreed to stop cutting their military budgets and set a goal of moving “toward” spending 2 percent of their gross domestic product on their own countries defense budget by 2024.

Some member countries simply don't have armies big enough to be able to absorb a huge increase in funding to their defence budget so quickly and that's why the 2014 summit pledge gave them until 2024 as an example Iceland has no standing army so where would their 2% GDP spent so they spend 0.1%

I agree some Nato members should increase their own military defense budgets especially countries like Germany and they have said they will.

"The bull in the China shop", not Trump he is too cowardly, he is good at tweeting slamming people, or in speeches or read statements but the face to face to cowardly for a confrontation you find him more conciliatory he can't even sack people from his Admin's face to face some flunkey or twitter is his forte ...

Last edited by Camden; 12th July 2018 at 00:23..
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:21   #374 (permalink)
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Re: Nato

Someone should give POTUS a geography lesson.
Exactly how far is Alaska from Russia?
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:31   #375 (permalink)
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Re: Nato

Well the simple question is this.
Are ALL NATO members paying their full agreed share for their own defence ? If they are then there's no valid reason for Bush, Obama or Trump to complain.

Poland tends to know the value of the US/NATO support, they've offered (if reports are right) 3 billion euros to the US to move US troops into Poland. Strategically I don't know how that works or even if that would be allowed by international/EU law but there would be one hell of a scream from Germany if 35,000 US troops left that country & moved to Poland.

Strange how things go. On the one hand many of us don't like the way the US interferes with other countries both politically & militarily wise. On the other hand, Europe wants the US troops inside & stationed within European borders.
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Old 12th July 2018, 13:00   #376 (permalink)
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Re: Nato

Quote:
Chips quote ..Strange how things go. On the one hand many of us don't like the way the US interferes with other countries both politically & militarily wise. On the other hand, Europe wants the US troops inside & stationed within European borders.

IMHO Not so strange Chips, I am sure countries that have lived under Russian rule eg Poland, Baltic states etc value their political independence and Sovereignty more than most , and feel more secure having the planets most powerful nations troops on there soil facing their old invaders............ knowing that any attempt at trying to re-establish control by Russia over there relatively new democracies and Sovereignty won't go the way of non Nato members Ukraine and Georgia with both losing parts of their countries to the Russians or worse ....... as they can call on article 5 of NATO which commits each member state to consider an armed attack against one member state, in Europe or North America, to be an armed attack against them all.
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Old 12th July 2018, 13:37   #377 (permalink)
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Re: Nato

The worry might be that if your not a fully paid up member, Article 5 may well become an issue.

Trump pointed out that Germany not only doesn't meet its financial commitment but by proceeding with Nord Stream Two, its putting monies in the pockets of the country perceived to be the enemy ie funding their weapon productions. As we speak that pipeline is being laid & we know what will then happen when finished.......Nord One will become obsolete. Seems Germany doesn't want to talk about that part of EU/European security.
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Old 12th July 2018, 15:12   #378 (permalink)
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Re: Nato

Quote:
The worry might be that if your not a fully paid up member, Article 5 may well become an issue.
Sorry, unlikely due to the strong support of Nato across the Atlantic, shown by the 97 - 2 pro-Nato vote in the Senate


Of course, Trump is trying to make a security matter into a mercantile transaction. He is obviously the salesman in Chief pushing for his fossil energy supporting backers, as an alternative to Gazprom. These fracking energy providers are happy to have the weight of the American Presidency to push for a commercial advantage over Russia.

Germany's trade with Russia is about 23 %, billions are they to stop all trading with Russia just in case the money paid is used on arms? where would that stop in the World of trading?

Many quite rightly are against Nord 2 for many reasons but not the Trump excuse by mixing trade and using security point over Nato contributions to push a trade position, for his backers.
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Old 12th July 2018, 15:39   #379 (permalink)
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Re: Nato

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The worry might be that if your not a fully paid up member, Article 5 may well become an issueÖ
Another issue is whether NATO would actually honour Article 5 and step up to the plate in the event of an attack on one of its members.

There is a country in Eastern Europe (that Iím not allowed to mention on here) that was guaranteed protection by GB and the US (& Russia ) on surrendering its nuclear arsenal & that didnít work out too well.

Could it be that some nations are reluctant contributors lest they find themselves in a similar situation and prefer to spend money directly on their own security?
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Old 12th July 2018, 16:04   #380 (permalink)
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Re: Nato

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Another issue is whether NATO would actually honour Article 5 and step up to the plate in the event of an attack on one of its members.

There is a country in Eastern Europe (that Iím not allowed to mention on here) that was guaranteed protection by GB and the US (& Russia ) on surrendering its nuclear arsenal & that didnít work out too well.

Could it be that some nations are reluctant contributors lest they find themselves in a similar situation and prefer to spend money directly on their own security?
If I'm not paid up on any of insurance policy's I don't think they would be coming to my aid if needed.

So is Trump right on his stance re Germany & Nord Two?
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