FORUM
  Home
  Forums
  Photo Gallery
  TLF Donations
  Forum Rules
  Register
  LINKS
  Property Buying Guide
  Didim Google Map
  Weather Station
  Classified Ads
  FUN
  Arcade Games
  Daily Crossword
  Jen's Chat Room
  Lira Exchange Rates
Old 14th November 2017, 02:06   #31 (permalink)
Senior Member Has-Been
 
immac's Avatar
 

Thanks: 2,774
Thanked 6,894 Times in 2,510 Posts
immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute
Re: PESCO -EU army!

This is good news. Anything that puts an end to Nato is progress from my point of view. I am all for EU having its own armed forces as part of its superstate ambitions, but not as well as Nato: good luck to them. It will never work because they don´t want to pay - and it is not a struggle to pay that stops them contributing 2% to Nato, it is lack of will. There is no way they will pay twice. This has been Trump´s point - pay up or we will take it (Nato) away.

With UK and USA out of the game, what are they left with? What a dog´s dinner that will be.

But all is not lost. This is a fine negotiating chip for UK in upcoming chit-chat about Brexit. After all, the UK armed forces may be a shadow of what they used to be, but they do have the most important elements - money, information/intelligence and willingness to fight.

So let them close down Nato, pay for their own defence and fight their own fights with their own foreign policy. Then let UK join in on UK terms and pay what it is worth to UK for the privilege: a sort of associate membership where UK can decide what it gets into.

Ian
immac is offline send PM Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2017, 10:18   #32 (permalink)
Member
 

Thanks: 110
Thanked 150 Times in 70 Posts
Camden has a spectacular aura about Camden has a spectacular aura about
Re: PESCO -EU army!

I know they speak many languages in the EU but what language do they need to speak (to be believed) when the current High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy and Vice-President of the European Commission says in her own words at the EU meeting on PESCO

The goal is an efficient European security alliance, which, however, has nothing to do with a European army. "Only together, as a Union, can we meet the security challenges of our time"

Also, it was said yesterday NATO will still have the primary role in the defense of the continent but run in conjunction and in support.

Where in that statement is there the Fact or even a suggestion that it will be the end to Nato?

This was also a repeat of what was said in March during the celebrations for the Rome Treaties, for the 60th anniversary, and I quote: “Heads of State and Government "pledge to work towards a Union ready to take more responsibilities and to assist in creating a more competitive and integrated defence industry; a Union committed to strengthening its common security and defence, also in cooperation and complementarity with NATO".

She is at least consistent in view, not like some it seems.

We now have an acknowledgment from some at least ,of the alleged lack of will to pay for Nato, their 2% or to pay for two. Then why the fear this PESCO will even get off the ground? it has been around for ages.

It seems we have a volte-face, from the warning of a European Army, to now it seems its ok if we join but on our own terms. The cake and eat it approach to negotiations it seems, now being deployed so well with our present uk negotiators NOT.

It's not the far from the ideal situation that we are in on Brexit, that p.... me off so much to post, its the additional use by some, of "alternative facts" to fear us even more of the EU bogeyman, and in some way it seems to justify the support they gave to this issue.

Which IMHO negotiating politicians are making a hash of, with infighting etc . Instead of now they have committed us, they should be unified in getting us the best deal possible in recompense, for the situation they have placed us in, and any future kids in my case.
Camden is offline send PM Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Camden For This Useful Post:
Akasya (14th November 2017), JanetClarke (14th November 2017), yalimart (14th November 2017)
Old 14th November 2017, 10:31   #33 (permalink)
Senior Member Has-Been
 
immac's Avatar
 

Thanks: 2,774
Thanked 6,894 Times in 2,510 Posts
immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute
Re: PESCO -EU army!

Gullible!
Trawling through the papers today, I notice the phrases "...the principles of the PESCO, in particular underlining that the "PESCO is an ambitious, binding and inclusive European legal framework for investments in the security and defence of the EU's territory and its citizens". The list of "ambitious and more binding common commitments" the member states have agreed to undertake, including "regularly increasing defence budgets in real terms in order to reach agreed objectives"."

So, while joining is voluntary, once they are in they are expected to cough up the cash. The idea is that they will pay for this force, which allows them to take on projects with-or-without other forces (i.e. Nato). They could not do that unless they have a force to deploy - so not just a talking shop so they all buy the same bullets. On top of that they will be expected to pay 2% to Nato - unlikely.

Anyway, if UK is out of it, good luck to them.

Ian
immac is offline send PM Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to immac For This Useful Post:
tintagel (14th November 2017)
Old 14th November 2017, 11:35   #34 (permalink)
Member
 

Thanks: 110
Thanked 150 Times in 70 Posts
Camden has a spectacular aura about Camden has a spectacular aura about
Re: PESCO -EU army!

Quote:
Originally Posted by immac View Post
Gullible!
Trawling through the papers today, I notice the phrases "...the principles of the PESCO, in particular underlining that the "PESCO is an ambitious, binding and inclusive European legal framework for investments in the security and defence of the EU's territory and its citizens". The list of "ambitious and more binding common commitments" the member states have agreed to undertake, including "regularly increasing defence budgets in real terms in order to reach agreed objectives"."

So, while joining is voluntary, once they are in they are expected to cough up the cash. The idea is that they will pay for this force, which allows them to take on projects with-or-without other forces (i.e. Nato). They could not do that unless they have a force to deploy - so not just a talking shop so they all buy the same bullets. On top of that they will be expected to pay 2% to Nato - unlikely.

Anyway, if UK is out of it, good luck to them.

Ian
Still looking for that invisible non-entity the European Army

The military of the European Union already comprises of various cooperative structures established between the armed forces of the member states, both intergovernmentally and within the institutional framework of the union. Used often in crisis areas.

If PESCO ever goes ahead. I say that as we both agree, the will is weak, as is the will to pay ...hence the call for binding rules.
Like for a continuous defense spend, but also to establish that the national units supposed to be given by members in a time of crisis to form a crisis task force, are both mobile and able to cross unhindered by borders, and the deployment of units made binding to the member state, as at the moment that is not the case.

As seen in the Central African Republic crisis, where the numbers needed to be deployed ended the EU begging for members for units to use, to little avail. They ended up having to use third non-EU countries units such as Georgia to meet the crisis need. That is what they hope to attain.

Last edited by Camden; 14th November 2017 at 12:59..
Camden is offline send PM Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Camden For This Useful Post:
Akasya (14th November 2017)
Old 14th November 2017, 12:06   #35 (permalink)
Senior Member Has-Been
 
immac's Avatar
 

Thanks: 2,774
Thanked 6,894 Times in 2,510 Posts
immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute immac has a reputation beyond repute
Re: PESCO -EU army!

I have seen two references to an as yet unconfirmed rumour: the new EU Army will invite Turkey to join.
Now, I ask myself, why would they do that if it is just a talking shop for EU members?
a. to add another language to the mix in the talking shop?
b. to ask them what size bullets they use?
c. as a precursor to asking them to join the EU as a full member?
d. to get access to half a million troops and a budget of £18billion.

Now which could it be?

Ian
immac is offline send PM Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2017, 12:46   #36 (permalink)
Member
 

Thanks: 110
Thanked 150 Times in 70 Posts
Camden has a spectacular aura about Camden has a spectacular aura about
Re: PESCO -EU army!

Quote:
Originally Posted by immac View Post
I have seen two references to an as yet unconfirmed rumour: the new EU Army will invite Turkey to join.
Now, I ask myself, why would they do that if it is just a talking shop for EU members?
a. to add another language to the mix in the talking shop?
b. to ask them what size bullets they use?
c. as a precursor to asking them to join the EU as a full member?
d. to get access to half a million troops and a budget of £18billion.

Now which could it be?

Ian
What EU army? Immac where is your facts?, what don't you understand?

I have laid down the fact from the horse's mouth the current High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy and Vice-President of the European Commission the EU on PESCO saying "however, has nothing to do with a European army. ""Only together, as a Union, can we meet the security challenges of our time"
Camden is offline send PM Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Camden For This Useful Post:
Akasya (14th November 2017)
Old 14th November 2017, 14:02   #37 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
tintagel's Avatar
 

Thanks: 35,922
Thanked 10,086 Times in 3,982 Posts
tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: PESCO -EU army!

Much debate about plans for an EU Army has taken place on the forum over the last couple of years or so, I believe there are several posts on the Brexit thread about it & also in the link below:

More War Mongering!

Germany needed the full cooperation of France, a Nuclear Power: Germany/Brussels/EU will now become a de-facto Nuclear state..... This was achieved by Germany catching France (Italy & Spain) by the financial short & curlies & the election of toyboy, ex-banker puppet Macron.......

Polish Donald Tusk should bow his head in Shame - Do the Poles or any of the other EU Electorates Know what their own EU Representatives have done??????

July 2016

"- 'European defence union' -
The Bundeswehr is now set to see its budget boosted and to get its first increase in troop strength since the Cold War, when it was still a conscript force, with plans to recruit nearly 20,000 personnel over seven years.
Germany, in order to reassure international partners, stresses in the White Paper that it will act within the trans-Atlantic and European frameworks.
"As a long-term goal, Germany aims for a common European security and defence union," says the text.

For now, this means using all ways of military cooperation authorised under the EU treaties and "strengthening the European defence industry" through tie-ups, with France in particular.

They proposes that Paris and Berlin "pool their resources" in foreign and security policy, and that their armed forces work together as closely as possible.

France, as a permanent member of the UN Security Council, would commit to presenting a common position with Germany, the authors suggested.
It is far from certain, however, that such an idea could gain traction now in France, a nuclear-armed military power whose politicians have been traditionally wary of German pacifism and still resent its abstention in the UN vote on the Libya intervention."

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/germany-pl...004.html?nhp=1

April 2016:

"They called for the creation of “a kind of a Defence Union”[5], probably mimicking Winston Churchill’s words on the creation of “a kind of United States of Europe”.

That political article initiated a game of negotiations between the Franco-German Axis and Italy, with the first simply proposing closer defence cooperation[6], and the latter actually proposing the creation of a European Army[7], in line with the intention by Renzi’s Government of working towards the creation of the United States of Europe[8], which might be seen only as a narrative framework, more than an actual goal, but one which has consequences on the overall management of Italian policies concerning the EU.

On 22nd November, the European Parliament adopted a non-binding resolution on European Defence Union proposing for it to be launched as a matter of urgency."

https://vdsviews.com/2017/04/06/decl...atest-success/

EDU (European Defence Union) or EA (European Army) is just splitting hairs over a name, whilst the reality is there's a lot more boots going to be put on the streets, All over the EU................
__________________

Last edited by tintagel; 14th November 2017 at 14:12..
tintagel is offline send PM Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2017, 15:19   #38 (permalink)
Postless Pointer
 
Akasya's Avatar
 

Thanks: 42,229
Thanked 24,902 Times in 10,653 Posts
Akasya has a reputation beyond repute Akasya has a reputation beyond repute Akasya has a reputation beyond repute Akasya has a reputation beyond repute Akasya has a reputation beyond repute Akasya has a reputation beyond repute Akasya has a reputation beyond repute Akasya has a reputation beyond repute Akasya has a reputation beyond repute Akasya has a reputation beyond repute Akasya has a reputation beyond repute
Re: PESCO -EU army!

But not the oft quoted , and misleading term " Army " .

Steve
Akasya is offline send PM Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Akasya For This Useful Post:
Camden (14th November 2017)
Old 14th November 2017, 15:48   #39 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
tintagel's Avatar
 

Thanks: 35,922
Thanked 10,086 Times in 3,982 Posts
tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute tintagel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: PESCO -EU army!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tintagel View Post
Much debate about plans for an EU Army has taken place on the forum over the last couple of years or so, I believe there are several posts on the Brexit thread about it & also in the link below:

More War Mongering!

Germany needed the full cooperation of France, a Nuclear Power: Germany/Brussels/EU will now become a de-facto Nuclear state..... This was achieved by Germany catching France (Italy & Spain) by the financial short & curlies & the election of toyboy, ex-banker puppet Macron.......

Polish Donald Tusk should bow his head in Shame - Do the Poles or any of the other EU Electorates Know what their own EU Representatives have done??????

July 2016

"- 'European defence union' -
The Bundeswehr is now set to see its budget boosted and to get its first increase in troop strength since the Cold War, when it was still a conscript force, with plans to recruit nearly 20,000 personnel over seven years.
Germany, in order to reassure international partners, stresses in the White Paper that it will act within the trans-Atlantic and European frameworks.
"As a long-term goal, Germany aims for a common European security and defence union," says the text.

For now, this means using all ways of military cooperation authorised under the EU treaties and "strengthening the European defence industry" through tie-ups, with France in particular.

They proposes that Paris and Berlin "pool their resources" in foreign and security policy, and that their armed forces work together as closely as possible.

France, as a permanent member of the UN Security Council, would commit to presenting a common position with Germany, the authors suggested.
It is far from certain, however, that such an idea could gain traction now in France, a nuclear-armed military power whose politicians have been traditionally wary of German pacifism and still resent its abstention in the UN vote on the Libya intervention."

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/germany-pl...004.html?nhp=1

April 2016:

"They called for the creation of “a kind of a Defence Union”[5], probably mimicking Winston Churchill’s words on the creation of “a kind of United States of Europe”.

That political article initiated a game of negotiations between the Franco-German Axis and Italy, with the first simply proposing closer defence cooperation[6], and the latter actually proposing the creation of a European Army[7], in line with the intention by Renzi’s Government of working towards the creation of the United States of Europe[8], which might be seen only as a narrative framework, more than an actual goal, but one which has consequences on the overall management of Italian policies concerning the EU.

On 22nd November, the European Parliament adopted a non-binding resolution on European Defence Union proposing for it to be launched as a matter of urgency."

https://vdsviews.com/2017/04/06/decl...atest-success/

EDU (European Defence Union) or EA (European Army) is just splitting hairs over a name, whilst the reality is there's a lot more boots going to be put on the streets, All over the EU................
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akasya View Post
But not the oft quoted , and misleading term " Army " .

Steve
I have now highlighted in Blue the relevant passage above; as it seems you're incapable of reading correctly any information that's posted by those you don't agree with...... & just post little objectionable ditty's in reply which you hope disguise the validity or veracity of what has actually been posted!
__________________
tintagel is offline send PM Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2017, 17:07   #40 (permalink)
Member
 

Thanks: 110
Thanked 150 Times in 70 Posts
Camden has a spectacular aura about Camden has a spectacular aura about
Re: PESCO -EU army!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tintagel View Post
I have now highlighted in Blue the relevant passage above; as it seems you're incapable of reading correctly any information that's posted by those you don't agree with...... & just post little objectionable ditty's in reply which you hope disguise the validity or veracity of what has actually been posted!
Sorry to get in the way of a personal discussion Tintagel with you an Akasya but I have put a link from what was said by the person dealing with PESCO and said in the European Parliment to all present 2017 .

They said quote, Clearly not the only one, and here comes the picture in which we do our work on security and defense, because I want to clarify, first, that our work is not leading to a militarization of the European Union. This is not leading to a European Union army.

If there is anyone in the world that knows the power of soft power, the need to combine different instruments, the need to have an integrated approach in responding to crises and conflicts, in using all different tools from the diplomatic to the humanitarian, development, economic and cultural, it is the European Union.

irst, we will enhance the coordination of national defence plans through the new coordinated annual review on defence. A trial run of the review will already be carried out this autumn.

Second, we will launch an inclusive and ambitious permanent structure cooperation (PESCO). This is based on more binding commitments between Member States to jointly develop and deploy military capabilities. A few weeks ago the European Council agreed that a common list of criteria and binding commitments will be drawn up within three months. This should pave the way for notifications to the Council to start the formal process of establishing a permanent structure cooperation and I am confident that this process can be done before the December European Council if Member States are coherent with their commitment to proceed in this way.

Third, the Commission – and here I will not enter into the work that has been done with Jyrki Katainen and Elżbieta Bieńkowska – has set up proposals for a European Defence Fund with, by the way, excellent interinstitutional cooperation and coordination that I think is also exemplary for other fields of action. I think that will continue in the months to come. The ideal would be to have PESCO projects financed by the European Defence Fund.

Fourth, work has been launched to make the Battlegroups – launched and established exactly ten years ago – fully deployed. We have never deployed them and this will be addressed during the review of the Athena mechanism in the second half of this year.

Fifth, we have established the first ever command centre in Brussels for the operational planning and conduct of military training and advisory missions. This capability is already providing support and guidance to our training missions in Mali, Somalia and the Central African Republic and is working closely with our civilian command centre to strengthen the synergies between our missions.

Sixth, and finally, we are also working to improve our civilian crisis management to make it more responsive and make sure it has all the capabilities it needs. All six of these measures have either already been taken or are underway with a speed that is quite remarkable – a few months of work – and a unity – all these decisions were taken unanimously at 28 in the Council – and with a great sense of unity and responsibility.

Let me add that the work on the future of European defence should not make us underestimate the current work of European defence. We have today men and women in EU uniforms serving under the EU flag, already contributing to the security of our citizens and our own region. Just last month, a Portuguese surgeon who served in our training mission in Mali was killed in the terrorist attack in Bamako.

We should honour the men and women that are serving peace under the EU flag. Our EU men and women are supporting our African partners in their work for peace and security in extremely challenging environments. Our training missions are supporting the local security forces as they fight against terrorism or against criminal networks. This is the European way.

We are a cooperative power and a multilateral power, always believing in an integrated approach, always believing in prevention. We are a force for peace and human development. This is how and what we are, and this is how and what we will continue to be, with more instruments to serve this way of working on security. We are – even more so – a security provider for our citizens and for our partners and this is how we use our military: in the service of peace, in the service of the UN Charter, and in the service of multilateralism.

Developing EU strategic autonomy to do so is even more important today than it was in all the previous decades. A stronger European Union in the field of security and defense is good for the EU.

Debates - Tuesday, 4 July 2017 - EU defence plan and the future of Europe (topical debate)

Last edited by Camden; 14th November 2017 at 17:36..
Camden is offline send PM Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
army , pesco



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rape army AntalyaIstanbul News & Views 37 17th December 2011 13:07
Army :( emmacoban Ask A Turkey Related Question 18 23rd January 2011 16:25
The Turkish army mariaca The Turkish Living Times 5 2nd November 2009 08:30



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 16:18.
TurkishLiving.com tested by Norton Internet Security TurkishLiving.com tested by McAfee Internet Security
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Style Provided By: Wrestling Clique - Wrestling Forums
TurkishLiving.com


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155