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Old 6th April 2017, 09:41   #1 (permalink)
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Ken Livingstone

Once upon a time, I used to quite admire Red Ken- he did and still does, wears is heart on his sleeve (just like good 'ole JC). I started to change my view of him when he was London Mayor. To me he is politician past his sell by date; a maverick with eccentric views who will never become mainstream again.

However, over the last few days I have been trying to follow what all the fuss is about i.e. his suspension for voicing anti semitic views. What I can gather, he supported MP Naz Shah after she had made anti semitic tweets. Ken then gave interviews that suggested a certain German Chancellor (1933-1945) was a Zionist before he went mad and extinguished 6 million Jews. This apparently is new stuff in respect of historical accuracy and he was basing his belief on what appears to be flawed historical facts.

He has never repented his "sins" and continues to argue that the version of history he believes in is the accurate one. It seems that this has so deeply offended Jews and is considered so anti semitic, he has been suspended by the Labour Party for 2 years (he has already served one of those) and because he refuses to recant, he faces more disciplinary action that could lead to him being booted out of the party.

My question is this: What has he said (in his mistaken belief) that so offends Jews and could lead to his expulsion?

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Old 6th April 2017, 10:07   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Ken Livingstone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil's_Advocate View Post

However over the last few days I have been trying to follow what all the fuss is about. His suspension for voicing anti semitic views. What I can gather, he supported MP Naz Shah after she had made anti semitic tweets. Ken then gave interviews that suggested a certain German Chancellor (1933-1945) was a Zionist before he went mad and extinguished 6 million Jews. This apparently is new stuff in respect of historical accuracy and he was basing his belief on what appears to be flawed historical facts.

He has never repented his "sins" and continues to argue that the version of history he believes in is the accurate one. It seems that this has so deeply offended Jews and is considered so anti semitic, he has been suspended by the Labour Party for 2 years (he has already served one of those) and because he refuses to recant, he faces more disciplinary action that could lead to him being booted out of the party.

My question is this: What has he said (in his mistaken belief) that so offends Jews and could lead to his expulsion?
He never said Hitler was a Zionist. He said that Hitler supported Zionism and signed an agreement with them before the war to transport Jews out of Germany to what is now Israel. This is a matter of record; the signed agreement is in the museum in Tel Aviv.

As Ken said, why should he apologise for reporting a fact.

It is questionable why he needed to bring it up, but the fact it happened is not disputed. Ken has made it clear that is they try to sack him from the Party, he will go to Court, where facts are facts, whether you like them or not. That is why (he guessed) they did not go down the severe route on the last hearing, because they were taking legal advice not to do it.

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Old 6th April 2017, 10:12   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Ken Livingstone

It all spins around the interpretation of the The Haavara Agreement. Did a Zionist organisation enter an agreement with Nazi germany? It is most certain they did.

Was it a partnership of like minds? certainly not.

Was it in desperation to save as many and as much as could be? Most certainly.

Does it condemn Zionism [which i dislike] as closet Nazis? not to me anyway.

A contract with the Devil is sometimes all you can do, that is how I see it.

I reckon Ken got his interpretation of it wrong and I think his anti Zionist stance has been hyped into anti semetism.





The Haavara Agreement (Hebrew: הסכם העברה Translit.: heskem haavara Translated: "transfer agreement") was an agreement between Nazi Germany and Zionist German Jews signed on 25 August 1933. The agreement was finalized after three months of talks by the Zionist Federation of Germany, the Anglo-Palestine Bank (under the directive of the Jewish Agency) and the economic authorities of Nazi Germany. It was a major factor in making possible the migration of approximately 60,000 German Jews to Palestine in 1933–1939.

The agreement was designed to enable Jews fleeing antisemitic persecution under the new Nazi regime to transfer some portion of their assets to their refuge in British Mandatory Palestine. It provided some relief for Jews fleeing by allowing them to recover some of the possessions and assets they were forced to surrender before departing. A portion of those possessions could be re-obtained by transferring them to Palestine as German export goods.
The agreement was controversial at the time, and was criticised by many Jewish leaders both within the Zionist movement (such as the Revisionist Zionist leader Ze'ev Jabotinsky) and outside it. For German Jews, the agreement offered a way to leave an increasingly hostile environment in Nazi Germany; for the Yishuv, the new Jewish community in Palestine, it offered access to both immigrants and some economic support; and for the Nazis it was seen as a way of breaking the Anti-Nazi boycott of 1933, which had mass support among European Jews and was thought by the German state as a potential threat to a fragile German economy.

Hitler was not personally involved in the negotiation of the agreement, and his views on it appear to have shifted over time.

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Old 6th April 2017, 10:17   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Ken Livingstone

I don't like Kens political stances, I never have, but I have to agree with many that what is happening to him now is all wrong.

The video of him being confronted by Jeremy Corbyn on the way into a building said more about Jeremy Corbyn.
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Old 7th April 2017, 09:34   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Ken Livingstone

Ken is wrong, Hitler never supported Zionism and it is a misinterpretation of the facts. What Hitler did was use the concept to further his desire to move to toward his ultimate solution which was to wipe Jews and others off the face of the planet. At first he was encouraging them to leave Germany but once he had a stronger power he began his persecution and mass murder of Jews.
What is very concerning today is that people do not recognise that the rise of populism and the underlying extreme right wing agenda behind this could soon see a repeat of the holocaust for other groups, mostly Muslims, currently being targeted. Hitler got into power because many people did not see the signs and supported him initially, they were not racists but ordinary people sleep walking to a totalitarian state by voting in a despot. We see this happening in several countries at the moment, America is the most striking example but the rise of UKIP shows this is a risk in the UK as well. I am not saying all who voted for Trump or for UKIP are racists, many are not, but they are unintentionally supporting the underlying fascist agenda. I lost family members in the holocaust and I do not want others to experience this today and every time people like Ken Livingstone minimise or justify Hitler and the Nazi's acts then we move closer to a similar atrocity occurring in the not so distant future.
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Old 7th April 2017, 10:53   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Ken Livingstone

Quote:
Originally Posted by cside View Post
Ken is wrong, Hitler never supported Zionism and it is a misinterpretation of the facts. What Hitler did was use the concept to further his desire to move to toward his ultimate solution which was to wipe Jews and others off the face of the planet. At first he was encouraging them to leave Germany but once he had a stronger power he began his persecution and mass murder of Jews.
What is very concerning today is that people do not recognise that the rise of populism and the underlying extreme right wing agenda behind this could soon see a repeat of the holocaust for other groups, mostly Muslims, currently being targeted. Hitler got into power because many people did not see the signs and supported him initially, they were not racists but ordinary people sleep walking to a totalitarian state by voting in a despot. We see this happening in several countries at the moment, America is the most striking example but the rise of UKIP shows this is a risk in the UK as well. I am not saying all who voted for Trump or for UKIP are racists, many are not, but they are unintentionally supporting the underlying fascist agenda. I lost family members in the holocaust and I do not want others to experience this today and every time people like Ken Livingstone minimise or justify Hitler and the Nazi's acts then we move closer to a similar atrocity occurring in the not so distant future.
Nobody is saying that Hitler 'Supported' Zionism! But he did 'Allow' Zionist Jews to go to Palestine with some of their wealth, which at that time was not allowed, obviously the wealthier, better connected Jews had a say in who got to go & who didn't.

Don't blame populism, UKIP, Trump or people sleep-walking for the Racist Hate of Hitler & co!!!! Ever asked yourself; Who Bankrolled Hitler?

"The Haavara Agreement (Hebrew: הסכם העברה Translit.: heskem haavara Translated: "transfer agreement") was an agreement between Nazi Germany and Zionist German Jews signed on 25 August 1933. The agreement was finalized after three months of talks by the Zionist Federation of Germany, the Anglo-Palestine Bank (under the directive of the Jewish Agency) and the economic authorities of Nazi Germany. It was a major factor in making possible the migration of approximately 60,000 German Jews to Palestine in 19331939."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

"Zionism, the Balfour Declaration and Conflict to 1922"

Jews and Arabs in Palestine, to 1939

As Always - it's all Politics & Money - follow the Money, it usually leads to the beginning...............
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Old 7th April 2017, 11:56   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Ken Livingstone

Those criticising Livingstone never ever directly quote that which he said , i wonder why ?

Even the Labour Party NEC cannot allow him recourse to the Law as previously said , the courts would only deal with his actual comments , not other peoples misinterpretation or fabrications

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Old 7th April 2017, 13:30   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Ken Livingstone

Quote:
Originally Posted by cside View Post
Ken is wrong, Hitler never supported Zionism and it is a misinterpretation of the facts. What Hitler did was use the concept to further his desire to move to toward his ultimate solution which was to wipe Jews and others off the face of the planet. At first he was encouraging them to leave Germany but once he had a stronger power he began his persecution and mass murder of Jews.
What is very concerning today is that people do not recognise that the rise of populism and the underlying extreme right wing agenda behind this could soon see a repeat of the holocaust for other groups, mostly Muslims, currently being targeted. Hitler got into power because many people did not see the signs and supported him initially, they were not racists but ordinary people sleep walking to a totalitarian state by voting in a despot. We see this happening in several countries at the moment, America is the most striking example but the rise of UKIP shows this is a risk in the UK as well. I am not saying all who voted for Trump or for UKIP are racists, many are not, but they are unintentionally supporting the underlying fascist agenda. I lost family members in the holocaust and I do not want others to experience this today and every time people like Ken Livingstone minimise or justify Hitler and the Nazi's acts then we move closer to a similar atrocity occurring in the not so distant future.
Some fair points there Cside

Sadly from being victims they have become the perpetrators of vile genocide/ethnic cleansing themselves with the criminal regime in Tel Aviv -entirely sustained by the US -no better than Hitler's butchers
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Old 7th April 2017, 13:41   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Ken Livingstone

Is this an international & London thing, because in all my years in the Midlands I've never seen or heard of anything happening to or about Jews? Don't even know if they have a community around here & just keep their heads down.............we do though have a jewellery quarter so I suppose.................
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Old 7th April 2017, 13:42   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Ken Livingstone

Reckon they need added to the TLF hate list
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