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Old 1st May 2008, 01:38   #1 (permalink)
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Independent Professional Advice

The Simple DIY test for Rating your Advisors

On this forum there are always recommendations emphasizing the value of independent professional advice- but obtaining good advice is not a simple or easy matter.

Often the advice one seeks is dependent on a plethora of factors, and these often require evaluation, and closer examination of specific circumstances, context, and other factors. So sometimes it is not legal advisors at fault for being "hazy"- it is those expecting simple answers to issues that they would prefer to oversimplify for convenience, that are at fault of being "hazy".

And in using forums such as these to seek references, it can be confusing, as there are a number of parties that come in for criticism that may be unjust- including solicitors -there are always at least two sides to every story - and on forums such as these we are unlikely to receive an airing of "the other side" of the story.

But how does one go about obtaining good advice, when there are a number local solicitors with relations with local developers, and no qualms about conflicts of interest, and are prepared to abuse their positions & erstwhile foreign clients' trust, just because they correctly suppose the foreigners will never find out the truth of the matter, or obtain valid advice? Many solicitors pretend to be "hazy" about issues, and will even mis-inform on issues, unless they think you know better, or you can find out different. But there are some that merely lack professional discipline, not just in their conduct, but also in the way they think, and analyse the law!!!

That's why independent professional advice is so important- the corrupt practioners spoil things for everyone else, far beyond their simple act of greed, avarice and stupidity cloaked in self-serving momentary deceptions. There are good solicitors around that have the integrity to put you right. But anyone expecting to obtain their services or advice on the cheap or for free, such as in this forum, really deserves the nonsensical advice they receive. You get what you pay for. If you want a monkey, you only have to offer peanuts - not even a banana!! But what you don't see will definitely hurt you - like the discarded banana peel you slipped on further down your road....

The current legal circumstances with regard to foreigners purchasing property in Turkey provides an ideal opportunity to QUALIFY the quality of advice provided by your advisors- whether they be estate agents, solicitors, accountants, mortgage brokers, bankers, etc

Currently the legal position is clear and unequivocal- there is no legal provision for foreigners to purchase property in their own name.

So ask your advisor - "what is the legal position with regard to foreigners purchasing property in Turkey". There is but one factual answer- "they can not". Your advisor is surely obligated to provide at least this simple truth, in addition to whatever other explanations of expectations, political, investment, psychological, religious, or astrological commentary they wish to embark upon.

If your advisor does not defintitely and certainly provide you with at least that simple element of truth - fire them on the spot. After all, are you paying them to mis-lead you?

Whatever other commentary or perspective offered on "expectations" may be interesting but it is only just that - an expectation - nothing more. And expectations are specualtion. Not fact. The fact is as stated above.

After all, are you paying your advisor to provide misleading statements?
Are you paying your advisor for political commentary? For parliamentary analysis of the issues surrounding ratification of the new legislation? Do you really imagine these simple advisors living on the coast to have anything more then the merrely vaguest idea of what they are talking about? Unfortunately by this time no one is really interested in whether they know what they are talking about or not. We have all become so accustomed to such brazen behaviour, that their uninformed nature goes without saying.

As polished professionals, some such characters are true experts at one thing - gaining your CONfidence, hence the terms of CON-ARTIST and CON-MAN. Bare a brazen front in reply to their psychological trickery.

There seem to be far too many "professional" "advisors" in various professions related to the property industry that are insistent and intent on masking the facts from people - as if such people are not capable of assessing the information and arriving at informed decisions of their own accord.

This is the culture of mis-leading, and mis-selling, that in the UK verges on fraud and has a number of formal descriptions as civil and criminal offences.

Mis-representing or mis-leading statements are polite terminology masking another simple truth - these are lies told by liars - you deserve the outcome if you continue to put yourself at risk with an association with such parties.

If indeed the approval of the new legal framework is expected soon, then have your fun with your advisor while the situation exists as is presently.... At the very least, your advisor may think twice about mis-leading you again....

On the other hand, if the undeniable faults of human nature are already comfortably accepted but less offensive to you, then consider the wider benefits to be achieved by ridding the landscape of such parasites...

Do yourself and everyone else concerned a favour, and fire your unscrupuolus advisor, and pay not a penny more, and instead, seek the services of a legitimate advisor of professional integrity, thereby rewarding such honest and trustable advisors with the business and livelihood you would otherwise be feeding to scurrilous scallywags that do such dis-service to everyone but themselves and their fleecing Fagans....

Last edited by Darren; 1st May 2008 at 02:17..
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Old 1st May 2008, 05:44   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Independent Professional Advice

Great post Darren, an enjoyable read
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Old 1st May 2008, 09:42   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Independent Professional Advice

Great post Darren. Maybe you could follow up by giving us some idea of fees charged by good professional advisors.
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Old 1st May 2008, 10:26   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Independent Professional Advice

Great post, clear, informative & very refreshing to read.

Last edited by tintagel; 1st May 2008 at 10:35..
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Old 3rd May 2008, 03:17   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Independent Professional Advice

Thanks for your moral support. I wish I could provide an example of fees but it really depends on the specifics of a case, no matter what the discipline. Sometimes one is tempted to be inclined into imagining that shopping for professional services is like shopping for potatoes in the market where ready price comparisons amply abound; in reality, pricing professional services is so time consuming and tedious, and requires such extensive knowledge of the subject matter, that the exercise itself typically can't be effectively conducted by a lay person, without a commitment of considerable time and effort that qualifies the person as a project manager or the like....

Presumably referrals from satisfied and disgruntled customers serve a purpose.

Not to be confused with unscrupulous charging - For example, I have known charges for a simple standard procedure - the application for military permission - to range from £200 to £1500; the latter figure is clearly gouging.

Accountants have charging bands they use as reference points but are not obliged to adhere to them - exceptions etc

The scams are the most distasteful aspect - and usually these prey on human frailities- greed, fear, etc

For example, the practice of being enticed by greed with a small and low cost upfront, on what appear to be favourable terms, which often look too good to be true, and then later upon learning everything unfavorable about what wasn't said before, the poor victim stays the course on a damaging path involving substantial sums, merely for the fear of losing the little they remain committed to stubbornly cling with mis-placed belief to.

Or the practice of offering a discount or perceived saving of some small amount, which even the suspecting find difficult to resist, and which inevitably leads to unfavourable outcomes, or a saving that doesn't compensate from the corresponding loss it results in. Saving pennies costs pounds?

Despite the scary stories on this forum, I suspect the overwhelming majority of people have done relatively well overall by investing in Turkey.

More frightening, are the shiny stories that are awaiting the new arrivals that have yet to purchase. Websites carrying so much codswallop by self-proclaimed experts. Adorned with seriously smug mug shots so hilariously reminiscient of wide boy Rob Roys. The polished patter of telephone salespersons patently without a clue but persistently pig-headed to perfection in pursuit of your pounds.

You have to laugh if you enjoy the circus - but the damage is unforgivable. I shant shed a tear for fear of any inconvenience that vamishes such vermin...
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Old 3rd May 2008, 03:32   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Independent Professional Advice

Darren,

I appreciate that you can't give me a breakdown of professional fees. Can you tell me, though, why Turkish doctors charge very low fees compare with their counterparts in Western Europe whereas Turkish solicitors charge very high fees compared with their counterparts in the West. Is it easier to be a doctor than a lawyer in Turkey?

Also, can you tell me how much would a Turk expect to pay a lawyer for making a will?
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Old 3rd May 2008, 04:00   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Independent Professional Advice

GUZ!. With Doctors and Dentists it's probably because a) of the competitive environment- there;s a new shingle hanging out around every corner, b) the prevalence of larger practices is slow to catch on - if you want that kind of environment you practice in a hospital- but these type of professionals typically dont like to have bosses, so they work for themselves, and c) given the competitive environment, they will often extend deferred payment terms to their customers- usually be default - the customers cant pay till later so the Dentist or Doctor has to follow up and because the cash flow position is always burdened by this factor they need cash customers and take on new jobs and cut rates- its a vicious circle. Its only at the top end where the "society" Doctors and Dentists make a fortune - Istanbul. Some of these are exceedingly expensive - and as Dentists for example, will intentionally conduct invasive surgery to ensure continual return of their patients, inevitably to ensure a client for life, in high end brdgework etc

Its only the lawyers in the coastal region where there are unknowing foreigners, where the charging rates are quite literally obscene. Some of these lawyers simply don;t perform anything like lawyers- they just went to the coast to prey on foreigners for a fast buck- its as simple as that. Come to think of it I know cases where persons representing themselves to be lawyers are actually not lawyers at all. I know one case where the Turkish legal advisor representing a UK law firm is not a qualified practicng lawyer in either Turkey or the UK, and that firm was implicated in a major scam, the "lawyer" managed to flee that scam untarnished, and is now presiding as the legal advisor for a different UK legal firm on other Turkish developments, which are also involved in other scams, but of a less serious nature. On the other hand, some of the lawyers that are referred by developers to their clients, provide no legal service whatsoever- they may just be office assistants - they simply follow the developers instructions- they apparently do not even know procedure.

On the other hand, litigation can be costly to engage in from the perspective that Turkish lawyers have a rather curious obligatory ethos in so far as they are entrusted in looking after your best interests whether you like it or not- and this can run up sums unexpectedly.

There are some very good Turkish lawyers on the coast- but you would not find them typically servicing foreign clients, and you would not find them associated with "magonda" developers - they work for established wealthy Turkish clients - if a local land owner has land to develop they will look after that clients interests, for example.

Realise that there are a lot of "developers" that went to the coast in recent years to prey on foreigners just as lawyers, agents and other undesirables have. These people are all outsiders to the established communities in these regions, but many of these "magondas" are the only Turks many foreigners have dealings with.....

A Turk would probably expect to pay 150 -250YTL for a simple will- but a will for a foreigner is not a simple will- theres communciation costs, additional time, perhaps transaltions, and the value added aspects- understanding foreign legal stuctures and treatment and adapting the clients requirements for Turkish assets to merge with their overall requirements - and then their are additional costs associated with executing any Turkish legal documents for foreigners.

Last edited by Darren; 3rd May 2008 at 04:23..
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Old 3rd May 2008, 07:38   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Independent Professional Advice

There is a scale of Lawyers fees - In Turkish - on this site(at the bottom). I think this is the minimum charge.

http://www.barobirlik.org.tr/mevzuat...aaut_2008.aspx

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Old 3rd May 2008, 11:20   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Independent Professional Advice

Terrific post Darren, as we all know there is a system for the Turkish people and another for the Foreign client. The Turkish market for foreigners purchasing is still relatively evolving and to this end the mind set is that we will take all now and not the long term view that if you are treated correctly you will gain repeat business and so on.
Unfortunatley, for the Turkish people there has been little or no training, no Qualifications or Appreticeships, no time served as in Plumbers, Joiners, Electricians,or indeed even in offices NVQs and so on. They are simply "Odd Job Men" as I refer them to be. So for the Independant Professional Advice this would be on a wing and a prayer and to this end open to scams and unsrupulous dealings.
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Old 3rd May 2008, 14:25   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Independent Professional Advice

Nice one immac!
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